Tempers flared as Lewisham councillors heard work to stem ballooning costs from the children and young people budget had not yet impacted its overspend.

Lewisham reported an “unprecedented” £15.6m overspend last July, but after a £6 million top-up from the council's reserves the service is still expecting to be overspent by £9.6 million at the end of this financial year.

Work to improve the service has not yet impacted the budget hole, the public accounts select committee heard.

Selwyn Thompson, Lewisham’s head of financial services, said the overspend had “undergone significant analysis” including through regular meetings with officers and the cabinet members for finance and children and young people.

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The £15.6m overspend, which was mainly on children's social care, was put down to a systems failure and “assumptions in the budget” but worker retention and the use of agency staff were also revealed as drivers.

The overall budget has been cut by 30 per cent over the last eight years whilst the child population in Lewisham had increased by 9 per cent, according to council documents.

“The term used last time was ‘a leap of faith’ in regards to the children’s social care position and I think we are relatively confident to this year’s position. We understand the numbers.”

But Cllr Alan Hall asked what changes had been made since the overspend had not decreased except from the £6m top-up from the council’s reserves.

“The £6 million that has already been transferred across, let’s take the £6 million out and add it to the overspend. That makes the overspend still £15.6 million, [which is] no change. That is just a cash transaction.

“What has changed in the whole year? We have still got the same problem,” he said.

MORE: Lewisham councillor worried after overspend on children's social care

Mr Thompson said they now had “some stability in the numbers.”

“We understand the position in the numbers. They aren’t growing [and] they are not decreasing,” he said.

“They haven’t increased for the last five-month period,” he added.

He said he expected a “decrease in the numbers” eventually as part of the improvement plans.

But Cllr Hall said Mr Thompson had had “the whole year” to impact the figures before committee chairman Cllr Jim Mallory threatened to kick Cllr Hall out of the meeting.

In a terse interaction, he said: “Alan, you are out of order.

“You can ask them [your questions] after his presentation, all right? Otherwise I will ask you to leave.”

Cllr Hall said: “That is entirely up to you.”

Cllr Mallory said “I might just do it” before Cllr Hall said he would not leave.

Cllr Mallory then said Cllr Hall had “pre-empted the discussion.”

“Nobody was saying that these savings will be achieved overnight. What we were saying was that given the plans that were in place we were expecting improvements next year, not this year.”

He said the top-up of the base budget was “to give some stability.”

This followed an earlier outburst while councillors were discussing ways for the council to generate revenue with other local authorities.

Cllr Mallory said Greenwich Council was becoming “increasingly parochial” and then said: “Dare I say that publicly. The press will report me and I have no doubt our mayor will get a call from the leader of Greenwich saying, ‘what is Cllr Mallory saying in the middle of a public meeting?'”